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Faith Beyond All Answers: A Response to John Piper’s Theodicy

John Piper didn’t waste any time. Six days after the devastating earthquake in Japan, he published a post on his Desiring God blog entitled “Japan: After Empathy and Aid, People Want Answers.”  Here the revered Reformed Baptist theologian and pastor plunges (as he has done on many occasions before) boldly into the field of theodicy. For those who wonder why disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, and nuclear meltdowns occur, Piper provides exactly what he believes is wanted—answers: clear, direct, and free of nuance.

Thankfully, Dr. Piper knows that answers aren’t all people want and need. They want empathy, and some aid would be good too, and he strikes a note of compassion in asserting (he didn’t have to do this) that our empathy and aid should extend not just to allies but to enemies. (Piper’s doctoral dissertation dealt with the issue of loving enemies.) He also strikes a welcome note of humility, acknowledging that our loving response to tragedy “doesn’t need to have all the answers. Only God does.” Our job as human beings, Piper implies, is simply and faithfully to proclaim the answers the Bible gives us about tragedies. And that’s what he attempts to do.  He writes, “No earthquakes in the Bible are attributed to Satan. Many are attributed to God. This is because God is Lord of heaven and earth,” and “Earthquakes are ultimately from God. Nature does not have a will of its own [. . . .] God has reasons for what he permits. His permissions are purposes.”

In this way, then, Dr. Piper depicts the earthquake and tsunami as “God’s unilateral taking of thousands of lives.” If you wanted an answer, now you have it; one free of sentimentality and equivocation. And on a more specific level, he applies this generalization to Japan, explaining that “God has a good and all-wise purpose for the heart-rending calamity in Japan on March 11, 2011, that appears to have cost tens of thousands of lives [. . . .] Indeed, he has hundreds of thousands of purposes, most of which will remain hidden to us until we are able to grasp them at the end of the age.”

Dr. Piper then turns from answers to exhortations, recommending we pray for some specific purposes to be fulfilled through the tragedy. He recommends we pray that unbelievers would come to repentance and that believers and unbelievers alike receive a wake-up call that we are in the end times. He recommends we pray for a widespread acknowledgment that our lives are a loan from God that may be recalled as quickly and inexplicably as they were dispensed, for a deeper fear of the Lord, and for a desire to flee from this unstable world to the safe shelter of God’s stable power. He recommends we pray that Christians repent of worldliness and that Christians in Japan and around the world would demonstrate that just as Jesus stepped in to shield us from God’s ultimate “unilateral taking of thousands of lives,” we should try to relieve people from the consequences of God’s most recent action in that department. Through us, then, people can receive answers along with our empathy and aid.

This response will no doubt be deeply satisfying for many people of a certain theological bent, those who want simple answers to go along with their aid and empathy. This clean and clear theodicy, an explanation for how evil and suffering can exist, resonates well with the old saying, “The Bible says it, I believe it, and that settles it.”

But as I’ve suggested elsewhere, for all its air of confident piety, that axiom is more than a little misleading. I think the underlying meaning of the saying could be more accurately rendered like this: “The Bible says something which I interpret in a certain way, and I believe that interpretation, and that settles it!” Yes, acknowledging the complexities of the interpretive process has a way of reducing the simplicity of one’s answers. But in the interest of truth and honesty, we often have to let black-and-white, open-and-shut simplicity at least temporarily dissolve into the grays of complexity and even the darkness of perplexity. Sometimes, a greater, deeper, richer, and more harmonious simplicity emerges on the other side, but getting there isn’t fast or easy. In between lies “the valley of the shadow of death.”

Attempts like Dr. Piper’s to explain suffering and evil bring great comfort and security to some. But in the end, the practice of theodicy often adds to the evil and suffering that it attempts to explain. In arguing for God’s power, theodicies often depict him—this powerful God is almost always masculinized—as heartless. In defending God’s compassion, theodicies often depict God as inept at universe management or deficient in universe planning. Either way, the speaker leaves the stage (or the writer leaves the keyboard) feeling he has confidently defended the reputation of the Lord, but the hearers (or readers) feel the Lord has been somehow reduced in the process. And when you’re traumatized, a reduced but well-defended deity isn’t what you need. Yes, answers like Piper’s may help some keep faith, but speaking personally, if my only option for Christian faith required me to be satisfied with the explanations given by Piper, I would be driven away.

Evil and suffering, I suspect, aren’t properly responded to by simple explanations. They certainly demand our empathy and our aid, but they also demand much more: our ongoing presence in shared agony and our passionate self-giving to our neighbors in pain. That ministry of presence and self-giving also includes serious reflection—going beyond simple answers. And it invites dedicated research to understand why catastrophes occur and how they can be better prevented or anticipated and avoided in the future.

Dr. Piper inhabits a religious universe where it must be deeply satisfying to respond to catastrophes in the way he has, for he has done so on a number of occasions—an earthquake in Turkey, a bridge collapse in Minneapolis, and a tornado that seemed to him to single out liberal, gay-friendly Lutherans. I doubt he, or many like him, will ever change course because this kind of explanation, for them, is fidelity—to their way of reading the Bible, to their understanding of God, to their tradition of strict Calvinism. To propose another way of thinking about the issues must seem like proposing infidelity.

I remember reading a copy of a magazine from Piper’s theological tribe a couple of months after September 11, 2001, and the articles were all asking the same question: why did God purposefully, unilaterally choose to take these lives in this way? What wasn’t questioned was an assumed view of God as the controller and mastermind behind all events. If one were to ask, “What is God’s relationship with the universe?” the only answer from Piper and his colleagues would be “Sovereignty,” and sovereignty would mean absolute, unilateral control.

That, I think, is not the only option for a faithful believer in God. Especially for a faithful believer in God as revealed in Jesus Christ. This, to me, is part of the scandal of the Incarnation and the scandal of the cross: that God, when God shows up in Christ, doesn’t take control. God in Christ doesn’t institute “martial law.” Nor does God in Christ unilaterally eliminate all that we call suffering and evil. Nor does God in Christ cause any additional suffering and evil. He doesn’t fly into Jerusalem on angel’s wings or a fighter jet, nor does he ride in on a white steed or tank, nor does he enter with well-armed guards or even sticks and stones.

Instead, we see Jesus going quietly from town to town, confronting suffering and evil, calling people to repentance for inflicting suffering and evil on one another, and healing and liberating people from suffering and evil at every turn. He doesn’t unilaterally impose even this healing on them though: he allows their faith, whether great or small, to make room for it. Finally, in Christ on the cross we see God’s ultimate way of dealing with suffering and evil: to bear it with endurance, to suffer it with tears and agony, to take it into God’s own heart, and to heal it utterly, not by avenging it, but by forgiving it. The kingdom or sovereignty of God that Jesus proclaims, then, doesn’t come with the power of unilateral control but with a radically different kind of power: the gentle power (Paul dares call it “weakness”) of love.

I think it is fair to suggest that Dr. Piper sees Jesus’s suffering on the cross in the same light he sees the suffering of the Japanese in the wake of their triple catastrophe: God has inflicted this suffering and so we must accept it as God’s will and that trust God had a good reason for choosing to do it this way. I suppose for some that is more hopeful than saying evil and suffering occur with no reason, no purpose, or no meaning at all.

To me, as I reflect on the Scriptures and on the jagged history of our planet, it is better to say that God’s sovereignty is not totalitarian. God isn’t the kind of king interested in absolute control. God wouldn’t create that kind of relationship with the universe because God isn’t that kind of God. Instead, God creates space and time for a universe to be, to become, to unfold in its own story, its own evolution. God’s kingship is God’s absolute commitment to be with us, whatever happens, always working to bring good from evil, healing from suffering, reconciliation from conflict, and hope from despair. This is the God I see imaged in Jesus, born as a vulnerable baby, growing as a vulnerable boy, living as an unarmed man with courage and kindness. This is the God imaged as a king who washes the feet of his subjects, a king whose power is revealed not by killing and conquering but by suffering and dying . . . and rising again.

Like Dr. Piper, I see a certain commonality between Christ on the cross and the people suffering in Japan. But it is not that God is unilaterally taking life in both cases: it is that God, incarnated in Jesus, is present in the suffering and evil of life, feeling our pain, weeping with us in solidarity, sharing our losses and bearing our scars, moving with and in us to provide empathy and aid and much, much more. That is not an answer in the sense of an explanation, I suppose, but it is something precious: it’s the kingdom that cannot be shaken.

This approach evokes from us a spiritual practice that isn’t often talked about. I tried to describe it in Naked Spirituality as the practice of rage and refusal, captured in the simple, agonized word no:

We don’t deny the reality of suffering, on the one hand, nor the possibility of God, on the other. Again, this acknowledgment certainly doesn’t constitute an answer to the intellectual problem of pain. I believe there are answers on a certain level. But even the best answers are terribly unsatisfying, and they work better in a classroom than in a hospital room, beneath a pile of earthquake rubble, or at a crime scene. They provide only cold comfort to a person in agony, and often, as they solve one intellectual quandary, they create twenty-two more. As C. S. Lewis famously and wisely stated, the best answers don’t do as much good for a person in pain as a dose of courage does. So to pray on in the face of outrageous suffering, it seems to me, is at heart a choice of courage and hope, even if the prayers sound like blasphemies to observers.

So we shout, “No, no—I will not reject God! But no, no, no—neither will I deny my questions either! No, I will not cave in to despair, but no, neither will I be pacified with unsatisfying answers or superficial comfort. No!”[1]

Indonesia, Haiti, Chile, Japan—nobody knows where the next catastrophe will strike. Thank God for people like John Piper who will urge others to respond with empathy and aid, and whatever answers they can muster. But thank God too for the freedom to find those answers unhelpful and to find comfort in faith and action beyond all answers.


[1] McLaren, Naked Spirituality: A Life with God in 12 Simple Words (New York, NY: HarperOne, 2011), 260.

Author:
Brian D. McLaren :
Brian D. McLaren is an author, speaker, pastor, and networker among innovative Christian leaders, thinkers, and activists. He is a frequent guest on television, radio, and news media programs and was listed in Time magazine as one of America’s twenty-five most influential evangelicals. The author of numerous books and articles, his most recent offering is the book Naked Spirituality: A Life with God in 12 Simple Words. Brian is married to Grace, and they have four young adult children. His personal interests include ecology, fishing, hiking, music, art, and literature.
  • http://www.facebook.com/stevenbill Steven Bill

    Thanks for this Brian.

  • http://www.facebook.com/debbie.long1 Debbie Iverson Long

    Totally agree with you!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=547278290 Jimmie Roan

    Beautifully said.

  • Jodie in Sacramento

    Thank you Brian! I am in ministry and would love to be able to articulate these thoughts in lay-terms. As you have seen everywhere, we have countless seekers who have zero faith/religious background. They are afraid that the world is coming to an end. They are hearing the loud ‘religious’ voices say that calamity is part of God’s plan. Our voices, your voice – they are not clanging. So how do we become clangers in their language? Our lay-folks would not understand your response here – they would be lost at the first paragraph. What books do you recommend for these un-churched people who are scared to death? (I love Ragamuffin Gospel, but need up to date – simple and quick teachings/websites – for these folks)

  • JSojourner1

    Brian,
    You and I don’t always agree. Just most of the time. Thank you for a wonderful response. I am sure Dr. Piper is a good man at heart and I am certain God has used him wonderfully. But I am glad you responded as you did…and in such a loving, Jesus-like way.

    One thing from a purely pragmatic point of view: If God did send floods, earthquakes, tsunamis and other disasters for the purpose of punishing sinners…then why is God being so half-assed about it? And are the Japanese any better than Americans or Italians or Peruvians at sinning? Or was it just “their turn”?

    I know it’s a tragedy…God knows I know. But if punishment is what it was all about, then the U.S. Army Air Corps did a much more effective job that God in one night over Tokyo in 1945 than God did with the earthquake, tsunami and nuclear accident. Something tells me if it were in God’s nature to punish, God could outperform the United States military.

    Just sayin’…

    Jim in Fort Wayne

    • Seth

      Why did God cause the Tower of Siloam to only fall on 18 people? Because He willed it to fall on only 18. There is nothing necessitating God’s will and character. He is and does as He is and wills.

      • Larry Gilman

        This species of Christian stoicism, which casts God as an arbitrary power-deity and rebukes all cries of protest at human suffering, seems utterly un-Biblical to me. Elihu, answering Job, offers much this sort of cold-stone theology in the name of glorification: “Behold, God exalteth by his power: who teacheth like him? Who hath enjoined him his way? or who can say, Thou hast wrought iniquity?” etc. etc (KJV). But God rebukes Elihu and the other comforters and calls Job, who has complained bitterly to him, “my servant.” Mary outright _guilts_ Jesus for having let her brother die (John 11:32) — and is not answered with anything resembling this inscrutable-Will stuff. Christ’s response is described in what is probably the shortest, and certainly one of the most beautiful, verses in the whole Bible:

        “Jesus wept.”

        This seems to me the heart of what McLaren tries to say in his piece: in Christ, God weeps for us.

        Another commenter in this rather nauseating and combative thread mocks this “vulnerable” vision; another sneers at the idea of preferring a “pansy” God. But I’ll follow this vulnerable Jesus pansy any day.

      • Jon Brown

        Seth, I think you might be misinterpreting Luke 13 here. You ascribe the falling of the Tower of Siloam to a direct act of God, but this is not what the text says. If you look at the ESV you will note that the passage states that the tower fell. There is no textual indication that it was caused to fall. Indeed, this is not the point that Christ makes. Rather than stating that God caused these people’s deaths, he uses it as an example of the frailty of human life and calls sinners to repentance now, because they do not know when their time will come.

        • Kate Snyder

          Jon, not even a sparrow falls to the ground without the Lord Jesus. The lesson from the tower is repentance, yes, but from Genesis to Revelation we see direct or indirect acts of God that bring about the deaths of many. Do you realize Jesus destroyed the entire planet with water, saving only eight people? Or do you deny this as does McLaren? This greatly offends him, so much so that he says *that* God is not worthy of our faith or worship, and yet that God is Jesus Christ. Satan is the god of this world and his works arer manifest everywhere, but he can’t even sneeze without going to the throne and getting permission.

  • Muzi

    “If you have a false idea of God, the more religious you are the worse it is for you. It were better for you to be an atheist” – said British scholar, Kenneth Leech

    • http://twitter.com/deathmoth gabriel j. edwards

      Do you mean this in regards to McLaren or Piper?

      • Muzi

        I’ll rather choose atheism that worship the God of Piper. I mean; what message do we give to the thousands who are affected? “It’s God’s doing, relax” – LOL

        • mendell

          Based on those statements, God is offensive to you, and so is God’s Word.

          • Muzi

            God who is Love can never be offensive. Only a wrathful, vengeful, capricious, mean. malevolent, immoral one is. Any interpretation of scripture depicting a loving God this way, is offensive.

  • http://feast4thought.com Mjbartel

    Very helpful indeed. Puts me in mind of Chrisopher Morse’s marvelous book Not Every Spirit: A Dogmatics of Christian Disbelief. Every time we affirm belief in one thing – “God loves us” – we disbelieve another thing – “God hates us.” We can affirm “God is sovereign” at the same time we disbelieve that “God is heartless and cruel.”

  • mendell

    McLaren’s god continues to be so helpless and powerless against evil. I’m glad my God is not.

    • Kathryn Helmers

      It is a scary thing to think of God being vulnerable to random suffering.

      • mendell

        God is not ‘vulnerable’ to anything. He is sovereign over everything.

      • Michelle

        Why does God have to be either “sovereign” (in the way of Johnny Piper) or “vulnerable to random suffering” as you seem to fear?

    • Heatherls155

      Your God is not helpless & powerless against it. He causes it. Praise Him for that.

      • mendell

        Jesus said, “In this world you shall have tribulation….” Do we know why, no. Is God sovereign over everything. You bet. I have a young child that went to paradise earlier than I would have wished. And yes, I praise Him for that.

        I wish Jesus’ teaching wasn’t a stumbling block for so many, but it is.

        • http://profiles.google.com/wscoggins Wendy Scoggins

          Mendell, Piper’s teaching is a stumbling block to me. Any god or man who imposes evil in order to bring about a specific purpose is Machiavellian at best and evil at worst. Instead, I believe that God is sovereign in that He created the universe and pretty much respects the (natural) laws He put in place. If you want to point a finger, you should check out those of us whose ruinous activities are destroying this planet, resulting in climate change. These disasters are merely a symptom of a very sick, sick planet.

          • mendell

            Sin and catastrophic events are currently very much around us. But it won’t always be this way. God intends to cleanse and renew our universe.

            Our response should be that we do want to care for our environment. But not because of some ridiculous love of mother earth, but because we love people. If we love people, we want what is best for people. And that leads us to taking care of the planet. But not just for the sake of the planet, as McLaren would suggest.

          • jessiwj

            Is there any explanation for when bad things don’t happen but they should? Is that God at work and why only intervene in specific situations? Isn’t it just as Machiavellian to be all powerful when he chooses with some people and not others? Or are there simply no such things as miracles and our universe is control of what happens rather than the God who has created it? I so struggle with God’s all powerful, sovereign control but I equally struggle with him having selective control…

  • Anonymous

    Thank you for this much appreciated response and perspective.

  • http://www.dunwanderinpress.org/ klatu

    When massive natural disaster strikes, and both the religious and non religious, atheist, agnostic, pious and impious, rich and poor, gay and strait, good and the bad, children and adults, are all simply wiped off the face of the earth without mercy or pity and with it a considerable chunk of civilization destroyed, closing ones mind to the great questions and implications are not so easily avoided. For here is where faith and fate might as well be interchangeable. Where faith is subject to fate and without value, where God, at least the conception of God provided by religious tradition, is exposed as an empty and bitter cup.

    It is becoming more and more obvious that God’s creative purpose has yet to even begin. That in it’s place the world has contrived no more than a theological counterfeit of revealed truth. Pictures of demolished cathedrals and churches in Haiti and Christchurch NZ are probably closer to what God thinks of these all too human theological creations pretending to his name. http://www.energon.org.uk

  • Jason DeGraaff

    Agreed that people often abuse the idea of, the Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it. But, I do believe that there are specific meanings the authors of Scripture are teaching. If we rightly understand what the author is communicating, then we can be confident of those truths. I believe that John Piper uses proper exegetical methods in interpreting Scripture, and that the conclusions he makes are not his own, but those of the Scriptures.

    Though interpretations may vary, that does not mean they are all correct. What I fail to see is a clear exegetical basis for your conclusions on God’s sovereignty and suffering. In your attempts to be generous to all worldviews I think you fail to represent a Biblical worldview.

    • Anonymous

      Jason,
      One of the things that has truly helped me see power and truth in the biblical text is that the meaning of a text is not controlled by the intentions of the author but rather by the text itself. The context of the author is important and every historical/critical tool at our disposal should be used to aid in our understanding but we can never fully understand the context of the author or what indeed was “intended”. Just as important as the author’s intention is our own “intention”. What we bring to the text affects how we read it.

      Truth is not so much a commodity to be “mined” or “uncovered” but a living reality that is created as we encounter these holy words. It is the Spirit that confirms the validity of truth, not our particular exegetical method, although methods are indeed important.

      This is very different from the way most people were brought in evangelical Christianity but Jewish theologians have been looking at sacred scripture this way for centuries. It is actually a very high view of “inspiration” that leaves freedom for the Word to create new realities in the lives of readers.

    • NP

      Could not agree more.  Thank you for bringing some sense to the discussion.

  • Anonymous

    I was just having this exact same conversation with a confirmation student yesterday! And it left me feeling despairing. The topic of the day was “If God is so powerful, why do bad things happen?” This young girl’s world view was based solely on one axiom, “Everything happens for a reason” which in her mind translates into “God makes everything happen for a reason” and then adding Romans 8:28 to the mix it finally ends up as, “God makes everything happen for a reason because he has a good purpose in mind.” This viewpoint is held by many because it enforces a necessary order on the universe that enables people to deal with senseless and chaotic events.

    But there is another way. The God-enfleshed, God-joined-to-humanity way of the cross. Since the current discussion is centered on the devastation in Japan, I might suggest reading a remarkable book by Japanese theologian Kazoh Kitamori after WWII. The title is “Theology of the Pain of God” and throughout, Kitamori makes the assertion that the heart of the gospel message is “love rooted in the pain of God. Instead of seeing God as outside of the human experience and imposing divinely purposed evils that bring about good, God is instead among and within the human experience- working, creating good from “all things” even devastating and evil things. God experience and human experience have been joined in Christ.

    We know why earthquakes happen. It’s called plate tectonics. The question now is how does the reality of God living among us, inside us, respond to the death we encounter in a broken world? How are we changed? Does it simply mean we have better answers? Or are we free from seeking answers and empowered to act with com- passion?

    • Seth

      But are plate tectonics under the control of God? Even if they are merely governed by physical laws now (which isn’t a biblical view), who created them that way? Is God so stupid that He didn’t know when He created the world and set things in motion that on March 11, 2011 there would be an earthquake that would kill thousands of people? Either He is ignorant or impotent. Or He is exactly like what the Bible says and “has made all for Himself, even the wicked for the day of doom.” Proverbs 16:4 You can have a pansy god or you can have the God of the Bible. I’m not saying choose the God of the Bible, I’m just saying don’t confuse the two.

      • Anonymous

        Seth I’m struggling with how to respond. You’re already defensive but there might be some things you should consider before “boxing” God into such a small space. That is essentially what happens, you know, with an understanding of God as the determinist. In the attempt to make God all-powerful in our own eyes, we actually create an image of a god that is small and power-less. Absolute control is the goal of petty tyrants, not the Living God whose unfolding story is told as a loving relationship with a sinful people. A people like us.

        You ask if God is impotent -a term of power with interesting fertility connotations since the ultimate power is that of creation, not destruction. Is power the ability to control, dominate or manipulate? Those are the “standard” characteristics of a god not the biblical one. Every religion seeks a god who is “all-powerful” according to man’s idea of power, in part so we can claim to use that god for our advantage. But the power of God in the bible, if you look a little deeper than one verse, is a the power of ongoing creation. It is the power of love for a people that keep rejecting the very source of Life who formed them, and God going to any lengths to woo the beloved back.

        Jesus, who communicates the fullness of God, weeps over Jerusalem and says, “How often would I have gathered you as a hen gathers her brook; I would, but you would not”. God’s power does not seem to include forcing people into love. Seth the temptation for you (and me) is to create a god that cannot be weak as humanity defines it. The big “stumbling block” for the Pharisees, the soldiers and even the criminals was not the miraculous nature of Jesus but that he could humble himself to hang on a cross. “Save yourself, IF you are the Son of God. Come down from the cross and then we will believe you”

        Theologian Paul Sponheim says “it is past time to get at the God question by asking what kind of being can hang on a cross”. The God of the bible is the One who weeps for his friends and allows himself to be treated as a “pansy” by Roman Soldiers. The apostle Paul tells us that God’s power is of a whole different nature than our for “my grace is sufficient for you for my power is made perfect in weakness” 2 Cor.12:8

        A “potent” God is one who can create. Death is a part of our experience and because of Jesus, it is also (in some way) an experience of God. God’s power does not eliminate death, it overcomes it. If you would read on from the example of the tower of Siloam, which you make some startling assumptions about, you will find the parable of the gardener. To the problem of fruitlessness, the gardner prescribes manure, the second chance of life to come from death.

        The earth is not built upon “pillars”, the accepted geological view of the writers of the bible. The crust floats upon a liquid and because of this there will be earthquakes. It is a part of the creation and behaves according to the physical rules the creator laid down at the beginning. But there is creative freedom within that static framework. We can prevent some kinds of damage and move away from others. For yet other tragedies, we can roll up our sleeves, get to work, and trust that God will create something good out of the mess. The earth is indeed “the LORD’s” but we have been given the charge to “serve and protect” (that’s what it means to have dominion). It takes a powerful God to hand over some control to creatures like us.

        Sorry this is so long. But there is something in the ‘pastor’ part of me that wants to reach out to you, child of God, whom I only know as Seth. I want you to know that the God who hangs on the cross, who empties himself and humbles himself, provides a power you have yet to consider. I sense it is a power you need for all that is happening.

  • Griffin

    Just, for what it’s worth, I think you misrepresented the Calvinist view of “sovereignty” in the incarnation of Christ, and perhaps would do well to amend that section. Misrepresentation always leads to misunderstanding.

  • Bob

    “God wouldn’t create that kind of relationship with the universe because God isn’t that kind of God” It seems clear to me that John Piper and Brian McLaren believe in two different Gods and actually advocate two different faiths (i.e. religions). I think the “fight” is for who gets to claim their religion is “Christianity”. This “conversation” (between Piper and McLaren) is really more akin to an interfaith dialogue and would better serve the larger community (imho) if it was simply presented as such. Just my two cents.

  • Br. Curt

    As I read the responses to you essay I am not surprised at some of the responses. (Sadly) For so many years Christians have been taught through the lens of empire and power that they think it is a threat to the Christian existence when someone has an alternative view of God. I become worried for folks who cannot open their hearts and minds to alternative views. Once they enter into Kingdom living they are going to be completely disoriented because it is so opposite what they were expecting.

    Most pain and suffering (mental and physical) are caused by our own actions or by the actions of others. God does not condone or condemn the actions or the results, He suffers with us so that we can come to a point of purification of our minds and hearts. It takes far more power to suffer with than to cause suffering. It takes more love, too.

    In the Creation story, God gave humankind the choice of whether to live with or without suffering– disobedience or obedience. Because God IS God, He (I don’t like always using He, but it’s such a habit it is hard to break!) does not want a bunch of animatrons. God wanted freedom for everyone. Regardless, humankind chose to perform actions that would create the causes of suffering. And, until humankind determines to refrain from such actions, we are going to consider suffering. When are we going to learn? Jesus taught the Way and we chose to change it, little-by-little chipping away from the pure message (Because it sounded so foolish?) so that we could wrap our uncomprehending brains around it.

    I wish I had the calmness of Brian to respond to such writing as this Reformed Baptist preacher. I guss I have been hurt by those like him so many times that it is going to take time for me to respond with love. With God’s help I will get to that point. After all, it is not for me to judge final outcomes. I only look forward to the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of Earth will look and/or be one and the same.

    • mendell

      “they think it is a threat to the Christian existence when someone has an alternative view of God”

      Actually, we Christians become concerned when someone has a view of God that is not biblically based. You have been deceived. McLaren approaches everything from a humanist view, and then tries to fit everything together, including his god. Why do you think that he only has questions, no answers.

      • Larry Gilman

        Earlier you write, Mendell, “McLaren’s god continues to be so helpless and powerless against evil. I’m glad my God is not.”

        Was Christ “helpless and powerless against evil” even though he rebuked Peter’s sword in the garden and allowed himself to be tortured and murdered?

        What is help? Power?

        Larry

        http://theotherjournal.com/s-word/

        • mendell

          Jesus’ power is displayed in the weakness of the cross. Jesus said ‘destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.’ McLaren looks at Christ, when he should be looking at Christ crucified.

          • Larry Gilman

            Dear Mendell,

            Thanks for replying.

            In truth, and I mean this sincerely, not sarcastically, “Jesus’ power is displayed in the weakness of the cross” seems to me not very far from what I think McLaren is trying to say.

            Yours,

            Larry

          • mendell

            Larry,

            Then please explain to me what the cross means to McLaren. He selects what he likes about the cross and the Bible general, and talks around the parts he does not. For example,

            “For too many people the name Jesus has become a symbol of exclusion, as if Jesus’ statement ‘I am the way, and of the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me’ actually means, ‘I am in the way of people seeking truth and life. I won’t let anyone get to God unless he comes through me.”

            So, if Jesus meant something other than what he says, why does only Brian know what that meaning? And if he knows it, why doesn’t he tell someone in his books?

            Also, Brian does not believe that Jesus work on the cross was for the atonement of sin. But then he gives no answer to why Christ sacrificed His life, just repeating his old statements of ‘we are asking the wrong questions’, ‘we need to re-frame the narrative’

            Put simply, Brian does not believe the Bible as it is written, so he constantly twists it to try to fit his humanist world view. And this is not new news. The gospel of Brian and the Gospel of Jesus are two completely different things.

      • LightbyGrace

        “We Christians” -which ones? I am a Christian and I do not have concerns about Brian McLaren. I come from a traditional, evangelical (with charismatic thrown in there) background and I do not see a wholly humanist viewpoint in his teachings… I have heard and read true full blown humanists and Brian is not one. He does bring what I see as a healthy dose of ‘humanity’ to his teaching – meaning I see him putting a heavier focus on applying a Christ-like perspective to the ‘here and now, among humans, on this earth TODAY’ rather than a ‘there and then, far away from this pit of destruction’ focus. And I believe that is what Jesus modeled. Life with Christ isn’t all about escaping the hard realities of life, it is about bringing God’s vision of how life should be to the here and now..

        You suggest that his teachings are not Biblically based? I am currently listening to a 51 podcast series that he did that takes us through the Bible, section by section, exploring the Biblical stories and what they reveal about God and Christ, how they teach us how to live a life with God and fellow men. He affirms Christ, His resurrection and His power. Just because he does not articulate it see it all the same way you do does not mean he is the boogey man come to deceive the masses.

    • John mcculloch

      I completely agree with Maclaren’s critique of Piper’s theology, which is based on a mixture of reformed Calvanism and a literal reading of the biblical text. One of the problems with this is that it assumes that a literalist interpretation of the Biblical text is the only one which does it justice, whereas in my view it does precisely the opposite, and in fact does it a great dis-service. To argue that the Japan earthquake, Tsunamis, Hurricane Katrina etc are sent by God is primitive in the extreme. Most ancient tribes attributed weather patterns to deities (and some tribes in the Amazon still do), eg: the god of the rain, the god of the sun etc. Those who wrote the Bible were conditioned by their world views, written as it was in a pre-scientific age. This doesn’t de-value it, but shows that God works incarnationally, working through time and through human beings cut through with all our limitations etc. For me this makes the Bible a far more amazing book than if it had just dropped out of the sky, or been dictated to us, like some say the Koran was.

      Tsunamis/ earthquakes occur because of tectonic shifts in the earth’s crust, which in turn occur because at the centre of the earth is heat and energy, without which there would be no life on this planet. Without tectonic shifts there would be no mountains, and the earth would be a swamp-land, unable to sustain life as we know it. Hurricanes are essential in distributing heat around the globe. To say that Katrina was sent by God to punish gays has more affinity with talibanistic views of God in my view.

      Many would say, then why would God create a world where these things happen? Maybe, it is the only way in which life as we understand it could evolve and be sustained, and what differentiates our planet from the countless planets and black holes which are unable to sustain life.

      The Bible offers few answers to the theodicy questions, primarily because God is a God of love, rather than a God of explanation. In fact, ultimately, the only answer he gives is himself. He enters our world of suffering, partaking in it fully, identifying with us through love, going through death to bring us into the hope of new life. If you want to know what God is like, look to Christ and to his self-emptying love, the God who hangs on the gallows holding out his arms to humanity, not a vengeful God who wilfully kills thousands as if to coerce them into obedience.

      To lift de-contextualised verses as Piper does, in an attempt to find quick answers to life’s big questions, in my view does not do the Christian faith justice, and paints a picture of a God who I would not be able to subscribe to.

      • Fnord

        It’s fine to say that earthquakes are caused by shifting tectonic plates, but that does nothing to deal with the sovereignity of God. He who created all that is remains in complete control of His creation, so He may or may not have sent the earthquake to specifically punish or warn anyone, but neither did He prevent it. There is simply no getting around the fact that God caused or at least allowed the deaths of these people for His own divine purpose.

        • mendell

          Ah, but without a basis in sola scriptura, you can get around anything by putting your own twist on it.

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_QBLKB23EH6IYUNOENMW5D37P4E examstaff

    Mr. McLaren enough about promoting your book, all you do is promote promote promote. Those checks must be coming in good.

    • Anonymous

      ahh. what a loving comment. I’m sure jesus is proud of you.

  • ryan

    “Fear of the unknown. They are afraid of new ideas.

    They are loaded with prejudices, not based upon anything in reality, but based on… if something is new, I reject it immediately because it’s frightening to me. What they do instead is just stay with the familiar.

    You know, to me, the most beautiful things in all the universe, are the most mysterious.”

    Dr. Wayne Dyer

    Thanks Brian for acknowledging the mysterious.

    • mendell

      Dr. Wayne Dyer believed, as does McLaren, that all major religions are basically the same as Christianity. He also had some gems such as “Paul dispels the notion of God as separate from man” and you must be “willing to acknowledge yourself as a divine being”. McLaren would certainly line up with quotes such as these. The Bible does not.

      • P diddy

        Christ quotes the psalms saying “you are all Gods”. In other words, yes the Bible does support such quotes. I’m not saying I agree, but there’s a good scriptural case for the argument!

        All major religions are the same only in the sense that they are all religions. Of course each is unique and more or less mutually exclusive except those funny hybrid religions such as Islamic Rastafarian (popular in west africa) or Jewish Buddhism (the BuJus of Israel) or maybe the Atheist-Zen-Quakers….

        Good luck on you quest for universal truth man!

  • Larry Gilman

    I very much what Mr. McLaren says. I offer the following in the way of a footnote or afterthought, not a correction.

    Surely no Christian or Jew can confront the mystery of suffering without thinking of Job? If I could say this better than G. K. Chesterton I would, but I can’t:

    “Verbally speaking the enigmas of Jehovah seem darker and more desolate than the enigmas of Job; yet Job was comfortless before the speech of Jehovah and is comforted after it. He has been told nothing, but he feels the terrible and tingling atmosphere of something which is too good to be told. The refusal of God to explain His design is itself a burning hint of his design. The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man. . . . God rebukes alike the man who accused, and the man who defended Him . . . Job puts forward a note of interrogation; God answers with a note of exclamation. Instead of proving to Job that it is an explicable world, He insists that it is a much stranger world than Job ever thought it was.” — from Introduction to The Book of Job (Wellwood, 1907)

    To “justify the ways of God to man,” in Milton’s phrase, has always seemed to me, in this light, essentially impious, presumptuous, hopeless and silly on its face. When we are really facing despair, the Cross, we want a living mystery, not a stuffy-toy comfort with button eyes.

  • counter

    The scripture is beyond clear that God is not the source of attrocity. It’s really simple.

    • mendell

      So how do you explain the flood?

      • Larry Gilman

        The Noachian flood never happened. Most simply, among many other difficulties, there is no geological trace of such a flood and no biological record (e.g., in DNA or biogeography) of the recent population bottlenecks in terrestrial animal species, including humans, that such a story would entail if literally true.

        Nevertheless, there’s a legitimate aspect to your question, because whether or not “the” Flood happened, many floods have. Many disasters happen, including diseases. Our very DNA is riddled with endogenous viruses and other defects. People and other creatures do suffer. And as long as there is suffering, the question “Why, God?” will recur in some form as an authentic cry from the midst of that suffering.

        There is a whole book of the Bible devoted to this mystery: the book of Job. In it, God is not represented as providing an explanation for suffering. God does not say that suffering occurs to teach lessons, or to punish the wicked, or to mature souls, or fulfill a master plan for history. God instead repels the very idea of explanation. God asserts God’s presence, God’s mystery, God’s transcendent glory — all without explanation. Those who have presumed to comfort Job by explaining suffering on any terms whatsoever — and much of what Job’s comforters say is perfectly true — are rebuked; and Job, who made so bold as to complain and to accuse the Almighty, rather than piously folding his hands and praising God’s will, is praised by God — and is satisfied.

        In this light, pat justifications of suffering in terms of God’s imagined purposes, also pat absolutions of God in the name of impersonal physics, both seem to me both wide of the mark. We should rather, with Job, both accuse and worship. Authentic accusation of God _is_ a form of worship: that is the truth of Job. Accusation, rage, and grief in the face of suffering bring us into the presence of the One who is the consuming fire, the whirlwind, and the still small voice. (For Christians there is more to say, but this is a part.)

        We should not even be trying figure out some way to Be All Right with what happens in this world — to anesthetize ourselves with selective Bible quotes or subtle bits of process theology. When we suffer, we should cry out. Christ himself did, on the Cross: like Job, he accused. We are not going to get off any easier, and should not even dream that that is the purpose of our faith.

        Sincerely,

        Larry

        http://theotherjournal.com/s-word/

  • Kevin Kreutzer

    Read “The God Who Risks” by John Sanders. It will be the best book youi will possibly ever read in regard to Evil Sin And Suffering. Also “Don’t Blame God” by Spirit and Truth International. Thank you!

    Kevin Kreutzer

    God Doesn’t allow or permit evil sin and suffering in peoples lives.

    • mendell

      Actually, the best book you will possibly ever read in regard to evil, sin, and suffering is the Bible. And in the Bible, it says that God is sovereign and ordains all things. God is not helpless against evil, as you assert.

  • lightbygrace

    So, I wonder if his family was killed in a natural disaster if it would be so easy for him to confidently proclaim that this was the Lord’s will and purpose? Would he see that as a ‘wake up call’ for himself?

    • LightbyGrace

      And I add a “God forbid” to that hypothetical situation… :)

      • bob

        Answer is yes. Look up his reflections about his cancer from a couple of years ago.

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  • Ryan D

    “God is definer, we are defined. When you move from us to God instead of God to us you WILL skew him badly. This is one of the great errors of our generation – inferring from our imperfections what God is like. ” John Piper (quote from Passion 2003)

    This hit me like freight train when I first heard this. I attended Greg Boyd’s church at that time and was totally cynical of Piper. It took me a couple years to see the ubiquitous man centered teaching that is everywhere today. When you are a fish in the sea of culture all you know is wet. I never realized how man centered I was. I am very thankful for Piper, though not a perfect man for sure.

    The real issue is that Brian, Greg and Rob Bell all have a problem with the free will of a sovereign God. They hate it. They despise even the possibility that God could ordain something “terrible” that we cannot understand with our extremely limited scope. There are likely a million things going on we do not have a clue.

    It is interesting to see HOW the mystery card gets played – in different areas for both sides. When a person considers where they are placed and why, a man-centered view and God-centered view clearly emerge.

  • Ntmnielsen

    …and how would I describe McLaren’s response and the 5 or 6 comments that I have read to it…..

    The Bible says something which I interpret in a certain way, and I believe that interpretation, and that settles it!”

    C’mon folks I think the argument should at least be an honest one and recognize that McLaren and Piper are equally dogmatic in their opinions.

    And to call Piper’s theology simple is truly an intentional undercutting of one of the most thoughtful theologians of our time. The quote “To propose another way of thinking about the issues must seem like proposing infidelity.” is a shameful reach. My concern is that this is frequently how McLaren reacts to those who do plenty of “thinking about the issues” but conclude differently. He is guilty of using a classic logical fallacy to attempt to undercut the person instead of the ideas. And we as his readership should encourage him to stop doing so.

  • Jeffbilt

    I would ask that all would read and prayerfully consider the words of Jesus in Luke 13 and also then as we dialog with one another that we also remember Jesus words as recorded by John in his gospel account 13:34-35. None of us have unlocked the nature and purposes of God but I believe that all of us can agree that first and foremost, God is love, and that we have a reaponsibilty as Kingdom people to represent Him in the world – to the world – as Jesus did (Col 1). Jesus offered stern words to the religious leaders of his day who “knew” they were “right” (John 5), and Paul as well in Romans observed that Gentiles blasphemed God BECAUSE OF THE HE WAS BEING REPRESENTED BY HIS FOLLOWERS. In our search for answers, let us do no harm and give theworld no reason to doubt the Almighty because of the way we represent him or the ways in which we interact with one another.

    Blessings to all in Christ Jesus our Lord,

    Your brother, Jeff Robinson

    • mendell

      First and foremost, as you stated, would be that God is Holy. That said, God is love, yes, and the cross is the love of God. There is such a bent today to teach the love of God, but want to separate that from the cross. And while asking questions and looking for answers is great, God already provided THE answer in Jesus. There is no better way to represent him than point people to the Jesus of the Bible.

      • http://twitter.com/JMSThiessen Jonathan Thiessen

        I have read all of your posts to this point, and here is where I feel compelled to reply.

        McLaren’s issue with Piper’s response to the calamity in Japan and other horrors in the past decade centers around your last sentence: “There is no better way to represent him (God) than point people to the Jesus of the Bible.”

        If you believe that Jesus is the perfect representation of God the Father you are stuck with what seems to my mind an impossible task, namely maintaining your support of Piper’s view of God. There is no way to interpret the work of Jesus, from his first miracle to his ascension, in a way that supports the Theodicy of Piper.

        My challenge to you, and Piper for that matter, is to risk imagining a reality where God as described by McLaren and others is actual. Having done so, write out all of your emotional responses. Next, categorize them (ie: anger, joy, fear, peace, etc.). Finally, pray with fasting for the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth.

        Now here is the “blasphemy”: leave your bible somewhere and just be with God the Spirit. We must remember that Jesus promised to leave us the Comforter; not the Bible.

        I pray you will experience a road to Damascus moment, where Jesus knocks you to the ground, blinds you from all but Himself and irrevocably changes who you are. Please pray that all who claim to follow Jesus will have such an experience.

        Yours in peace,

        Jonathan Thiessen

        • http://sortingshelves.wordpress.com/ Jennifer

          Magnificently said.

        • Kate Snyder

          Jonathan, it’s McLaren who needs to be knocked off his high horse. He has no clue who Jesus is. He wrote that Jesus is not worthy of faith, much less worship, because of His judgments against sin (the flood).
           
          You cannot separate the Holy Spirit from the Word of God because He penned it. Jesus said we will be judged by everything that came out of His mouth (John 14:44-50). No one in his or her right mind would belittle and scoff at what Jesus said, as recorded in the Bible. When He sent the Comforter, He confirmed everything already spoken, and with power, something McLaren has never demonstrated. Not once.
           
          McLaren is into dead religion – no spiritual life at all. I hope you repent of following him and turn to Jesus, the one who truly saves.
           

  • Mdiggy03

    This is the second response that I read to Piper’s article on the earthquake in Japan. I wish that I could say that I take an in the middle approach to this, but I do agree with Piper’s theology on this. Now does that mean that I am to do nothing because God COULD be judging them? By no means. I think both writers point out something great. Yes, I believe this does, in a odd way, show the power of God (Remember that no one deserves salvation and another breath of life; that too is an act of God’s grace (Rom. 9)). Yet, if we as Christians respond well it could also reveal the love of God. Please do remember that when we as Christians behave as the body of Christ, God’s agents of change, then we exemplify the character and love of Christ as bearers of His Word and Spirit.

  • TNBen

    Anyone who spends much time reading both Piper and McLaren should soon conclude that any debate between them cannot be an intra-faith debate. They use the same vocubulary, but altogether different dictionaries. Their respective understandings are so counter that the only reasonable conclusion is that they do not share the same faith or deity. Why pretend they do?

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=611971171 Bob Robinson

    The problem is that we don’t make a clear enough separation between chapters 1 & 2 of the biblical narrative, between Creation (which is very good) and Fall (which causes these terrible natural disasters). God is responsible for the first, but not for the second. The answer lies in chapter 3, the New Creation that Jesus initiated in the Resurrection. We look forward to the chapter 4, when the New Creation enters into it’s Day of Rest, what we might call Restoration. All suffering in our present day cannot be easily explained, but can be seen as signposts to the fact that the world is NOT what God wants it to be, but that we are in the midst of the “birth pains” (Romans 8:18-22) of the New Creation.

  • Damon

    “Instead, God creates space and time for a universe to be, to become, to unfold in its own story, its own evolution. God’s kingship is God’s absolute commitment to be with us, whatever happens, always working to bring good from evil, healing from suffering, reconciliation from conflict, and hope from despair. This is the God I see imaged in Jesus…”

    Paragraphs before this statement, the author chastises Piper for imposing his own view of God’s “sovereignty” upon people. Yet with this statement the author does the very same thing he accuses Piper of, imposing upon readers his personal notion of repackaged Deism. Even the arguments he uses from Scripture to prove that God allows the world unfold on its own fails to recognize God’s control in the background behind the actual human experience of the events themselves.

    Do you think the God of the universe who is clearly portrayed as sovereign throughout the Scriptures would really allow events to “unfold naturally” by sending his Son as a helpless babe when he did? That is equivalent to saying God “rolled the dice” and hoped for the best by sending Jesus. In this scenario I envision God wringing his hands in heaven hoping Herod doesn’t find out where Jesus was, or wondering if Judas will make the right choice and choose not to betray Jesus.

    And this is to say nothing of prophecy, which in a sense is God’s reassurance that what he promises will surely come to pass, and what he says he will accomplish will be surely accomplished. There is a rest… a peace and assurance that can ONLY come from knowing God is in control, or at the very least, that all things happen by allowance of God’s will. I believe it would be better to discuss how God uses primary and secondary causes, or to understand how circumstances are filtered though God’s will to accomplish his purposes than to give credence to any notion of Deism.

  • Mdw252

    “…when God shows up in Christ, doesn’t take control. God in Christ doesn’t institute ‘martial law.’ Nor does God in Christ unilaterally eliminate all that we call suffering and evil. Nor does God in Christ cause any additional suffering… nor does he ride in on a white steed…”

    …Yet. Read Revelation much?

    • Larry Gilman

      Question literalism much?

      • Mdw252

        Define “literalism.”

        No one would argue that most prophecy in the Bible – including Revelation – is largely symbolic. But even if it’s symbolic and not to be interpreted literally, the symbolism still means something.

        I just find it ironic that McLaren specifically mentions so many things that Jesus doesn’t do that are all explicitly stated in Revelation as things He will do. It’s the most explicit evidence in an article chock full of evidence that McLaren’s God is based more on what McLaren finds acceptable than what the Bible says about Him.

        • Damon

          Completely agree, MDW252. Like the Jews who “expected” the Messiah to accomplish things a specific way, McLaren assumes that because these things did not happen literally, they did not happen at all.

  • Thomas

    I think that Piper is one of the finest preachers I have ever heard. I have studied his work for years and I have to say that his arguements based from scripture on these issues are very impressive. I so want to believe what Piper says in these areas. I find so much comfort in the safety blanket of Calvinism…

    But I get the feeling that I am not called to be ‘comfortable’. As much as I passionately want Pipers teaching to be true, I am drawn with equal passion to Greg Boyds arguments for an Openness theology.

    McLarens work is largely unknown to me, although the fact that Pirate Christian Radio blasts him so hard, I have to admit that I automatically want to side with McLaren! I have ordered ‘A generous Orthodoxy’ as a starting point. I think it should make for some interesting reading…

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  • Seth

    If McLaren doesn’t believe that “The Bible says something which I interpret in a certain way, and I believe that interpretation, and that settles it!” applies to him as well, what is his epistemology? What it seems to be is, “I have a wish for how I want God to be (apart from anything and everything), and I believe that wish, and that settles it!” Now that may be a valid epistemology, but since epistemologies can’t be proved and are rather chosen, of the two, I think I’ll take Piper’s. I have some problems understanding how McLaren’s non-totalitarian, yet sovereign universe isn’t a contradiction. If this is his epistemology, it would fit in with why he didn’t at all address Piper’s incredibly simplistic interpretations of the texts. The texts don’t matter. The will of McLaren is the end of all discussion.

  • Ajdesau

    Answers, such as those which Piper proffers, may seem unhelpful in McLaren’s view because of what he believes “answers” to be. Maybe if he (and we) rethink what answers are, we can better find theodicies more comforting.

    http://www.inpursuitofglory.com/2011/03/truth-as-ladder-mclaren-piper-and.html?utm_source=BP_recent

  • David

    How about we move further in the other direction, the one you’re taking us, and say that maybe it is despair and hopelessness, maybe God is not only not in control of all things (sovereignty) but maybe He doesn’t even care. To move in the senseless direction you are taking us is to deny the God of purpose and destiny, the God of all power, the God of Love.

  • Jack Flowers

    I searched the Bible for the word ‘control’. and interestingly enough, in the NASB & NKJV it is never ever used in connection with God but always in connection with man, the best example being ‘self-control’ Yet we say ‘God is in Control.’ Total depravity is not a phrase mentioned in the Bible, neither is unconditional election,limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints. My appeal would be to let the book speak for itself and don’t put on it what you want it to say. In the west with our cerebral thinking we don’t like mystery or paradox we must know everything. Stuart Briscoe has a great quote he says ‘God does not tell us everything we want to know but everything we need to know.’ Between Mr McLaren and Mr Piper there is a gulf and it sometimes seems as if one wants to say ‘God has everything sown up and other ‘God has nothing sown up’ maybe the truth lies between them both. Have you ever looked up all of the names and designations used in the bible for Satan? try it and I think you will be amazed at how much material there is, depending on how you count there are between 30 and 53. ‘The earth is the Lord’s and the fullness thereof’, but ‘the whole world lies under the power of the wicked one’ Neither of these two brothers give sufficient credance to these verses and all that lies in between as we are at war and man is the battleground. One final point; This world is not my home’ it has built in it long term obsolesence’ it is ‘groaning in travail’ longing for the perfect. Paul says; ‘Then I shall know even as I am fully known!’ What an amazing verse; THEN I shall know!

    • Larry Gilman

      Good point. Worth noting also, perhaps, that in the KJV translation at least, the word “sovereign” (or any cognates thereof, e.g. “sovereignty”) appears only in the Apocrypha (once each in Wisdom of Solomon, Bel and the Dragon). Does not appear in the New Testament. Maybe a good word not to obsess on, for Christians.

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  • Shannon Lewis

    It’s odd that you call Piper’s response “simple”… it seems to me, as one who with whom his response rings fairly true, that this is an embrace of the greatest of mysteries… the will of God, who can fathom it? That God not only uses, but in some ways permissively wills apparent and genuine evils for greater good. It baffles my mind, and feels far from anything “simple”…

  • Brian Cassidy

    This was a superbly written article. I think when it comes to explaining these types of disasters we need to begin with the framework of “God is love’.

  • http://amac44.wordpress.com/ ALM

    Best I’ve seen on suffering, http://www.amzn.com/0825428106

  • Kate Snyder

    It’s you, Mr. McLaren, who are misleading, not John Piper. In the interest of your tortured thinking and diabolical dishonesty, you remain in your very dark perplexing place. The “other side” – where you think you’re at - is the easiest place to get to on the planet. It’s called unbelief. I don’t know a professing Christian who has reduced God more than you have. Your contempt for Christ is obvious and your arrogance is appalling.You have absolutely nothing to say to the church.

  • Pidjen

    I’ve discovered this post a bit late, but this idea has been weighing on my mind so much lately. You have interated in this post so many of the things that have been whirling around in my mind, but you’ve actually made sense of them all, whereasmy thoughts have just been a jumbled mess. Thank you so much for this post. It’s truly settled a very confused part of my heart.

  • NP

    How do you know what God is like?  You make this statement and I’m wondering how you defend it: “God wouldn’t create that kind of relationship with the universe because God isn’t that kind of God.”  Well, what kind of God is he then, and how do you defend it?  Piper is giving answers from the Bible, yes, but what Biblical answers are you offering?  Piper doesn’t claim to know everything, but he is speaking up to the point that God has revealed the answers.  It’s easy for you to throw stones, but have even worse answers than he.  Is it that his answers are trite/unhelpful or is it that you yourself have never experienced the truths that Piper is speaking of?  I suspect it is the latter.  You seem to have not understood the idea that if God exists and is really God, then you have no rights before Him.  This is clearly taught in Scripture – that God is the sovereign controller of the universe.  You sir, have never known or understood the first thing about God.  I beg of you, please do not call yourself a Christian.  I sadly suspect that you will one day be one of the “drop outs” of Christianity.  

    • Kate Snyder

      NP, thank you for your comment. Tragically, McLaren dropped out a long time ago.

  • Stacy Michaels

    Dear NP,

    How do YOU know what God is like?  Everyone speaks from their own interpretation of the Bible
    and Piper is no different.  Will you continue on your whole life
    with your nose up Piper’s butt, or will you have the courage to break free and
    realize that you really have no answers for why life really sucks
    sometimes.  Your response to McLaren’s post
    offers nothing but the trite response of a person who has put Jesus in to a
    little box that rests nicely on the mantle.  Please, don’t call YOURSELF a
    Christian.  For truly, the only God you worship is your image of who you
    think he should be to satisfy your unwillingness to ask and sit in the tension
    of unanswerable questions.  Insistently, why do you waste your time reading such blasphemy?  Do you think it is your God given mandate to lambast those you disagree with?  You, like so many Evangelicals, use cruelty, hate and fear to spew your venom.  You could have offered a wonderful argument for your point of view, but you chose to take the low road.  So I, in-turn, chose to respond to you in a manner that apparently speaks to you.  “I sadly suspect that you will one day be one of the “drop outs” of Christianity?”  You, and your brethren,  are an arrogant fools.       

  • Kate Snyder

    “The Cause and Cure of Earthquakes” by John Wesley:
    http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/129/

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